How can we as a community get our voice heard with the devs regarding grind?

[AirOnG]

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Looking for Elite Skills is a necessary evil only if you plan to be in the Olimpus of Guild Wars. If you dont, you just have to practice and choose your skills wisely. The time spent for Elite Skills or Runes whatsoever by the greatest guilds is similar to the time spent by the 16 yrs old members of a major Call of Duty clan. It's the time spent to be the best of the best, which is more or less proportional in any game. I think it's insane to waste all that time on a videogame, but thats my personal opinion.

Mormegil, I agree that investment of time has a correlation to player ability (to an extent), but guild wars adds a completely arbitrary way to turn the tables and completely unlevel the playing field with a very unfair advantage. It is not completely reliant on player skill. It is not a level playing field. Even though GW labels itself as an mmorpg, it labels itself as an mmorpg without grind for pvp and that statement is objectively false.

Let me make a very valid analogy with Call of Duty. If you have qualms with this analogy, please do tell, but only after giving it some thought. Let us say there was a SP game where you connect to an official server solo and that gives you weapon mods based on cd key and your time investment there (no hacking clientside files to bypass the grind). This SP game consists of shooting targets on a range. The more targets you kill in a very repetitive manner, the more chances of you unlocking weapon mods that let you do more damage or be more accurate with automatic weapons. So you could kill in 1 hit instead of 2 for an armshot or be able to spray better at medium range. Don't you see how arbitrary and silly this grinding game is and how it creates an unfair competitive environment?

I'm not merely whining contrary to your belief. I'm attempting to invoke discussion and constructive criticism and show that the grind in this game is unnecessary.

I concur with Synncial77. I do not understand why people are so adamantly against a system that will completely unaffect them in any way.

[eventhorizen]

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Any advantage is an advantage chowdah, no matter how small. If a person spawned with 110 health instead of 100 health in quake it's a minimal difference but it's still an advantage. No amount of arguing is going to convince you a level playing field is the best for fairplay and an enjoyable gaming experience.

Bleh this isnt quake. These advantages are not unchangable, you have the opportunity and the ability to get those little extras, tiny tweaks. If your idea of Guild Wars is just spawn fight spawn fight then you are going to be at a disadvantage by a player adept at the entire game. If this seams unfair to you go out and redress the balance, or stfu with your whining. The 'grind' as you call it is an actually a very large area to go out and personalise and craft and make your character unique. Its something to do between fights, improve yourself, if you cannot see that then I fear for you once 'real competition' starts to develop.

[QTFsniper]

from the guild wars main update page for future updates
"We are adding more boss monster locations to many high-level maps. This will improve the rate at which players can acquire elite skills by dramatically reducing the number of map clearings required to find and capture elite skills." happy now?

[AirOnG]

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

These advantages are not unchangable, you have the opportunity and the ability to get those little extras, tiny tweaks.

Those little extras and tiny tweaks are simply equivalent to dozens of hours of extremely repetitive actions.

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

If your idea of Guild Wars is just spawn fight spawn fight then you are going to be at a disadvantage by a player adept at the entire game.

Don't mislabel others. I can assure you I am of a competitive mindset and do not want a mindless game.

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

The 'grind' as you call it is an actually a very large area to go out and personalise and craft and make your character unique. Its something to do between fights, improve yourself

That's a very big euphemism. The grind is a repetitive action done over and over for dozens of hours in the same area. It is not fun in any fashion after the twentieth time.

eventhorizen, you are also assuming that I am not the one with all those little advantages. You cannot be so sure one way or the other. If I was to have all those little tricks, it would be a dishonorable victory and not really a victory at all to defeat teams without the acquired skills and set that I had. All I want is a level and even playing field.

Originally Posted by QTFsniper

from the guild wars main update page for future updates
"We are adding more boss monster locations to many high-level maps. This will improve the rate at which players can acquire elite skills by dramatically reducing the number of map clearings required to find and capture elite skills." happy now?

The grind would still be minimally impacted and still remain highly mindnumbing.

[MythicalMino]

hmmm.....if it would take segregating the players into two camps (pvp and pve)....and it does force the devs to add more servers to work the system....and since the UAS button would be actually going against the original design.....


What if....

the devs do this, form two different "games"....but have the pvp only players that use the UAS button pay a monthly fee to help with the extra servers?

[AirOnG]

It wouldn't really require more additional server power absolutely except for the tracking of the UAS. It'd be the same amount of playerbase playing on the same servers (except if this game gets more pvp players because word of mouth makes people buy it since it has no grind).

[Mormegil]

Originally Posted by AirOnG

It wouldn't really require more additional server power absolutely except for the tracking of the UAS. It'd be the same amount of playerbase playing on the same servers (except if this game gets more pvp players because word of mouth makes people buy it since it has no grind).

Ok then, the example you made about Call of Duty did fit. For some reasons, though, the UAS doesn't feel right. There must be some work-around.

Since we're talking about wasting time, I'll be more specific. A pro guild will get an Elite Skill in about 4-5 hours. Double the time if the boss doesn't spawn right or if bugs occur. A semi-serious guild will probably spend, say, 12 hours. Now, consider this: those hours should be fun. To get an elite skill, you should be forced to travel to a godforsaken far far away land with atrocious mobs. It should be fascinating, compelling, challenging. As things are now, most of the times it is not.

I agree with you on one thing: boss' random spawn is annoying.

I don't agree with you on the UAS button: AirOnG made an excellent comparison betweeen GW and Call of Duty pvp, but such a comparison has its limits. This is a (or, at least, sort of) MMORPG: think of your character as a hardened veteran who acquired some uber items and skills by fighting ferocious enemies in far away regions. This is the reason why your character is a little bit better and can beat many of his challengers in the long run.

[Goonter]

Hey heres an idea! How about a town that has specialized trainers in it. There you can "see" all of the skills avalible to your class, and buy all or any of the skills that you have not bought from trainers up to that point. This way you can see what skills you think would benift you most before you buy them, get an idea of what you want before you waste any skill points and have a central location to get the skills instead of moving across the map looking for skill trainers.
Finally, an option to buy elite skills for 2 skill points at the trainers location, or a capture signet with a mission to the bosses location with the skill.

[SOT]

I suppose I am not that hardcore of a gamer then. Simply put, this is a game. I bought it on a shelf. I play it more than I am intimate with my wife. I enjoy the game more than taking out the trash or mowing the lawn. I like the community.

What I do not like, or understand, is why so many folks seem to believe that Arena Net is a bunch of retards. They created a badass game, and the programming hurdle alone should humble most people. If there is a problematic area of the game that is ruining the experience for a large chunk of the gaming population, they WILL address it.

So far, only threads on here have allowed me to witness this kind of complaint. I am on 5 others. I don't get it.

[Khrysyl]

How do you get A.Net to hear your voice?

The good news is, they have!

Originally Posted by Gaile Grey

I think you will enjoy this week's changes. The sampler you read in the forecast newspost contained just four items. The actual list is well over twenty changes, both large and small. It includes some significant attention to issues mentioned in this very thread.

Now, I honestly don't think we're likely to do a sudden reversal and "throw the doors open" with a massive change like UAS. There is a game design vision for Guild Wars, after all, and our team is and must be guided by that, even while listening and responding to positive and helpful suggestions for change that will make the game better. Perhaps the design vision wasn't evident to you in Beta; perhaps you misunderstand our position. Just one thought on opinion, too: What one perceives as "grind" another perceives as appropriate game playthrough, where a third holds an opinion somewhere in between. I think many of us define the word differently. During the BWE's, you had 72 hours to help us test content, and from that 72 hours, we built a month's worth of changes, updates, improvements, and planned forward movement on design. Having ready access to high-end content was desirable for you and for us in that timeframe; having UAS was the method by which you could do the testing. It did clearly state that it was a testing-only provision, no? (I know, I know, not everyone is espousing UAS -- no need to clarify! It's just one example that came to mind of divergent thinking by the players.)

We'll see what the future brings. Viewing the community as a whole, it's clear there are many schools of thought, and addressing the input solely from one of them could lead to changes to the game that diametrically oppose those proposals from another group. It's a difficult challenge, but looking at the team, looking at what the game is now, looking at the potential for even greater things that you all clearly see, I'd ask that you continue to share your thoughts and more importantly, your excellent suggestions. Please do so, most definitely, while keeping in mind that Guild Wars is intended for players of all types and that we'll make adjustments wisely, and carefully, so as to continue to follow the vision, a vision that your positive contributions can help us form.

Oh, lots of someones read them, you can count on it!

Following is a link to the original posts:

See replies #57 & 61

[Mountain Man]

Originally Posted by Lazarous

This would be less amusing if it didn't come several posts after a mathematical explanation of why superior runes alone give teams 10-25% advantages in their spell power.

A theoretical advantage. What I'm asking, does this theoretical advantage actually present itself in the game? Nobody has done the tests, so nobody can say. And as I pointed out earlier, I can almost guarentee that ArenaNet has conducted these tests in order to properly balance the game.

[BE|Dac]

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

A theoretical advantage. What I'm asking, does this theoretical advantage actually present itself in the game? Nobody has done the tests, so nobody can say. And as I pointed out earlier, I can almost guarentee that ArenaNet has conducted these tests in order to properly balance the game.

yes they have and ask any alpha player if runes allow them to do otherwise impossible feats.

Runes do help and make a sizeable contribution to the game.

Skill selection is even bigger although harder to see (math) and does give a good advantage.

I would say a team with access to all skills and all runes, with less skill then the top teams of now could dominate the ladder. This is just because they would have the ability to constantly tweek and perfect different builds until they where unstoppable.

Right now its like building something with the wrong materials. VRS one made right you are doomed.

I beg anyone to differ, only insane genius or skill will win out, and not to mention understanding and tweeking different builds gives a huge edge in knowledge.

Not only do you have the material advantage you also learn faster and tweek better.

Ask any PvPer during UAS, etc. the versatility you have to recreate any new build in a short time is amazing, and is a "cornerstone" of the fun of PvP, this made every match more fun and different instead of the stupid stuff you see now.

It hurts PvP, It hurts everyone who liked the game.

[BE|Dac]

Originally Posted by Gaile Grey
I think you will enjoy this week's changes. The sampler you read in the forecast newspost contained just four items. The actual list is well over twenty changes, both large and small. It includes some significant attention to issues mentioned in this very thread.

Now, I honestly don't think we're likely to do a sudden reversal and "throw the doors open" with a massive change like UAS. There is a game design vision for Guild Wars, after all, and our team is and must be guided by that, even while listening and responding to positive and helpful suggestions for change that will make the game better. Perhaps the design vision wasn't evident to you in Beta; perhaps you misunderstand our position. Just one thought on opinion, too: What one perceives as "grind" another perceives as appropriate game playthrough, where a third holds an opinion somewhere in between. I think many of us define the word differently. During the BWE's, you had 72 hours to help us test content, and from that 72 hours, we built a month's worth of changes, updates, improvements, and planned forward movement on design. Having ready access to high-end content was desirable for you and for us in that timeframe; having UAS was the method by which you could do the testing. It did clearly state that it was a testing-only provision, no? (I know, I know, not everyone is espousing UAS -- no need to clarify! It's just one example that came to mind of divergent thinking by the players.)

We'll see what the future brings. Viewing the community as a whole, it's clear there are many schools of thought, and addressing the input solely from one of them could lead to changes to the game that diametrically oppose those proposals from another group. It's a difficult challenge, but looking at the team, looking at what the game is now, looking at the potential for even greater things that you all clearly see, I'd ask that you continue to share your thoughts and more importantly, your excellent suggestions. Please do so, most definitely, while keeping in mind that Guild Wars is intended for players of all types and that we'll make adjustments wisely, and carefully, so as to continue to follow the vision, a vision that your positive contributions can help us form.

Im too lazy to quote it.


Anyway.

What gaile is promising is nothing, really it is not a significant change.

1) Getting skill points is a chore.

I dont care how many bosses there are, I am out of skill points, so I should go farm for 20 hours and then unlock a few more elites, sounds great.

2) Whatever game vision they have it must look like Hitler created it.

Cmon we want some freedom, we dont like being hamsters forced to play through the same thing over and over.

3) On the issue of game vision not present in beta

www.guildwars.com game synopsis, I read it, I would like to see where that game is hiding.

4) The issue of grind is not a black and white issue (you are not sith are you )

Why not allow some PvP rewards? Why not allow a different more fun way of getting skills or runes? Maybe some cool missions like Defense of the Ancients meets Guildwars? What about a cool "defend the temple" Type thing? Some non linear gametypes that are present in a lot of used map settings type things from Starcraft or Warcraft, these offer lots of replayability and reward.

Instead you must think in generic terms of Diablo, instead of going the extra mile to try something new.

PvP Characters where a good step, but really they do not help all that much in the current system.

5) This game is no more a mmorpg then Diablo 2. Face it.

In diablo 2 you can max fairly quickly now, does that hurt the game? No, only cheating and hacks do, unfair things. To many this grind is unfair to those who do not have the spair time or willpower to do it.

6) Why have unfun gameplay?

You ADMIT a lot of people see it as grind, why not cater to both? why only one side? Have you ever heard of compromise? Instead of "Live with it". The "Live with it' attitude wont work so good when we all go play Battlefield 2 or DoD etc.

You might not miss us, most people already bought the game, but you might want to sell some expansions?

[Bamelin]

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

You ADMIT a lot of people see it as grind, why not cater to both? why only one side? Have you ever heard of compromise? Instead of "Live with it". The "Live with it' attitude wont work so good when we all go play Battlefield 2 or DoD etc.

You might not miss us, most people already bought the game, but you might want to sell some expansions?

That's key really ... Personally I won't be buying any new expansions if the game remains as grindy as it is so far, and I know many of my friends feel the same way.

I can only hope they come to realize that the casual PvP playerbase is a signifigant chunk of players that WILL leave the game if they are unable to access a huge chunk of the PvP content due to time constraints.

Gaille what happened to player skill being more important than time spent grinding as advertised on the website and retail game box?

I just don't understand why you guys did a complete 360 from BWE's to Retail in terms of the grind.

Bamelin

[Boris_714]

Please Standing in a room throwing the same spells over and over is BORING

Whats around the next corner is excitement
Bring on the expansion packs LONG LIVE GW

[Khrysyl]

From Be|Dac: "www.guildwars.com game synopsis, I read it, I would like to see where that game is hiding."

Hiding? It's not hiding, I'm playing it right now.

Oh, and your ad hominem attacks against Arena.Net do nothing at all in getting your voice heard by them. If you want to be heard by A.Net you should learn to discuss topics that concern you in a reasonable and adult manner.

[BE|Dac]

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

From Be|Dac: "www.guildwars.com game synopsis, I read it, I would like to see where that game is hiding."

Hiding? It's not hiding, I'm playing it right now.

Oh, and your ad hominem attacks against Arena.Net do nothing at all in getting your voice heard by them. If you want to be heard by A.Net you should learn to discuss topics that concern you in a reasonable and adult manner.

T.T

I will have my internet personality and public relations Committee address your issues in a timely and fair manner sir Khrysyl.

On the topic of internet relations over the industrius intelligence superhighway that is the internet it is true I have been lax in my use of proper argumentation and documentation. After 34 hours of meetings and two brainstorms in my lab. I have discovered that in fact I should address Arena.Net or the entity that it represents as being NCSoft and Arena.Net with more proper expressions over the interweb. My reputation as an adult with compelling arguments is at stake.

I have been looking into this issue and while it is apparent I will now add more complex words to my posts in an effort to address your valid concerns. while the issue stands that my posts might be childish, the ammount of childish is at stake. You see a four year old might find it not childish at all, while a 12 year old might find it just right, while a thirty year old Fan fiction writer might decide it is too childish. While I have thought about maybe making it fit for everyone, that does not seem reasonable to everyone.

Therefore stfu and stfd.


Regards

Dac the Hork Fuller

Internet personality and representative of childish affairs.


I will now make a blanket statement, The grind sucks.

Thanks and I am listening to all your arguments and do read the posts I will continue to ignore them like I have been since retail hit.

A point on the grind, I am not especially for a UAS or UAR, I am more for an elimination of the grind in the minds of players, this does not mean a UAS or UAR. PvP rewards or a more fun way to unlock stuff without repition, maybe better areas to farm, maybe more drops, etc. I really don't care if I still have to play the same hours, the problem is it is mind numbingly boring repeating the same things over and over.

I play games for fun not WORK.

If you like to earn shit why not get a job and actually get something worthwhile, games are for fun. And yes I think collecting and trading is fun, and I have gone through the singleplayer before.

[Jackell]

Back to the original poster on this, and not competing in the "grind" argument:

I'm thinkin the best way to get the devs to notice is to discuss the idea without it turning into a flame fest. This is a huge debate for the game, and so far as it seems, whichever way they go with the ideas put out, half othe community will be happy, a few just eh about it, and half pissed off, and that's not going to help them. Instead, in order to get their attention and make them listen, have a flame-free discussion with the people against it and find a middle ground that, while it won't make either side escatic, will make them happy with the results. Then they may be more apt to listen.

[Aria]

So far, this thread has not disintegrated into flames. Please keep it that way. If anyone try to start flames, you'll have a very unhappy mod here -- this goes for both sides of the argument. As a warning, I'll be very strict with this thread. Please keep it constructive.

If you have complaints, please either explain them in-depth and/or possibly provide solutions. For those looking to disprove someone else's arguments, keep all personal attacks out of it. And I mean *all.* Let's be a constructive community here, please.

Aria